Curse

Sausaletus Rex · Feb 11, 2005, 05:02 PM // 17:02

A subject which came up in the attribute thread and one which I feel deserving of its own space is the issue of secondary professions. When you're playing a pure weapon swinging Warrior or a pure healer of a Monk you're mostly concentrating on your primary profession. This leaves your secondary profession as largely an after-thought. When you've got your bar filled up 8 Monk skills, you don't really care what the * is in Mo/*. After all, you're not getting any skills, armor, or runes from that secondary profession. That's an extreme case, though, most characters are going to include something from their secondary profession.

But just what? If you're only using one or two skills, one attribute line, one narrow boost, from that secondary profession, just which one should it be? If you're going to play a Monk is it best to go Mo/Wa? Or Mo/El? or Mo/Me?

Or is that a false assumption? Limiting the input from your secondary profession might be limiting your effectiveness as a character. After all, it's the synergy between your two professoins that can really increase your power. Only a Mo/Ne is going to be able to use a technique like Demonic Flesh/Infuse Health, for example. So perhaps looking for the best secondary to fit your primary is the wrong path to travel and your profession choices should be more holistic. Say you're a Necromancer, what secondary profession you take is really going to color how you play and what your attribute and skill choices are and at the same time Necromancer blends well with almost every other profession without overshadowing them the way Warrior or Monk would.

Which model of character creation do you prefer? The Monk model where you're just looking for something small? Or the Necromancer model where you're really looking for someting important?

Aladdar · Feb 11, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

I always try and pick my secondary class based on what I want my character to do.

I believe that you are best served in most cases by focusing your build on two primary strengths. IMO, only if you're going to use a specialized role in PVP should you ever focus on only one thing such as a healing only monk (although I still feel they'd be better served with at least a secondary focus on something.)

I normally try and find something that I want my character to do, two things normally as I don't feel I need 8 skills to do one role (and if I do I'm not doing it effectively.)

Personally I enjoy a ranged damage dealer with disruption so I chose a ranger primary for the extra armor and good damage as well as disruption and then pulled in the other skills I needed from my secondary. Now in my case, I only wound up with 2 skills from my necro because the ranger skills just seem to work better such as concussion shot, pin down, etc... but I do like rend enchantments and shadow of fear from the necro side.

Dreamsmith · Feb 11, 2005, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex

Which model of character creation do you prefer? The Monk model where you're just looking for something small? Or the Necromancer model where you're really looking for someting important?

There's an even more extreme version of the second option. I started my Mesmer/Necromancer because I wanted a Necromaner, but hated the character models and the long casting times on Animate dead spells. I was really just looking for a better looking character with Fast Casting, but otherwise a pretty much pure Necromancer.

In the end, I decided minions were useless and converted her into a much more Mesmer heavy build, with only Curses from the Necromancer line, but initially, my secondary class was actually the focus of the build. Now that I think about it, Elmo fits that model as well, although I never thought Elmo was a good idea to begin with so I never tried that one...

When I first started playing, I was more holistic in my approach, then I started to specialize, lately I've been drifting back towards the more holistic approach (the relatively tiny benefits of specialization rarely justify the cost).

Siran Dunmorgan · Feb 11, 2005, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Arguably, it depends on what I'm trying to accomplish.

When playing PvE, I almost always take */Mo because it's good to have a Res out in the Explorable Areas, far from the safety of the nearest area transition.

When playing PvP, it's a harder choice: frequently, I'll take Ranger secondary to get Serpent's Quickness or Apply Poison, which synergize well with Elementalists and Warriors, respectively.

Mesmer also frequently makes a good complement to Warrior: casting Phantom Pain just before wading into battle can more than even the odds in a Tank vs. Tank match.

—Siran Dunmorgan

Spooky · Feb 11, 2005, 08:34 PM // 20:34

I suppose i'm something of an abberation, as neither school of thought really applies to me. Typically i'll either make a character around a concept, or base one around an existing character, and then find ways to use the professions and skills to best represent that character.
Jam is a good example of that .. she's a fast, close range combatant that often augments her attacks with Ki, manifested as flame. So in game, I end up with a Warrior / Elementalist that uses Conjure Flame, burst AoE, quick and cheap attacks, and carries a speed buff.
I may not always end up with 'optimal' combinations, but my interest in being l337 is passive at best.. 'characters' that are built around nothing more than a collection of superior numbers and efficient ouput have always felt bland and empty to me. I'd rather be able to invest something into my character and work through challenges accordingly, then to roll over everything and feel no accomplishment in doing so.
So, what fits the concept best, that's how I go about it.

cpukilla · Feb 11, 2005, 09:17 PM // 21:17

I like designing around combinations and a general role (or two) for the character. It can lead to interesting combos that aren't initially obvious, and lets you build to the skills of each class. I could make a ranger/mesmer for almost entirely anti-caster, or I could make a ranger/necro with ranger anti-caster skills plus necro curses to cripple melee and other rangers. So now I think I'll make a flexible ranger/necro and an energy draining mesmer/ranger (for serpent's quickness). Sniffing around for fun combos is how I like to work with different builds.

Freyas · Feb 11, 2005, 09:19 PM // 21:19

I generally always utilize both professions, even if I only use one or two skills from one of them. Even when playing a highly-specialized character, there's generally something you can bring along from a second profession to help your build, even if you don't have the attribute points to pump it high. Inspiration is a great utility attribute line for caster characters with a Mesmer secondary- the energy gain skills in that attribute can keep you casting longer than you would normally, increasing your effectiveness in whatever role you choose. For characters focused on Disruption, a Mesmer secondary(if that's not your primary) can be quite useful as well, for spells like Arcane Conundrum which will make your job easier.

Warrior secondary is a good one for characters generaly in Melee range- either one of the weapon skills for melee combat, or tactics for defense. Some of the stances can be quite useful, and can even provide some energy management options when you're attacked, such as Bonetti's Defense.

Ranger Secondary can be great for disruption or defense. Similarly to Warriors, Ranger stances are excellent for defense, though unfortunately many of them are linked to expertise, keeping them from the secondary class. You still do have access to a couple, though, which can be nice. Traps can be another nice addition for a secondary Ranger to bring along, as they do a significant amount of damage and inflict some useful conditions.... using Spike Trap or Dust Trap to surprise the enemy warriors rushing in to attack your healers can help keep your healers safe.

Elementalist Secondary is excellent for either conjures to boost your damage or the Earth line to boost your defense. Conjures add a decent amount of damage to every attack you do, and they last for 60 seconds, meaning that they require little attention and energy. Armor of Earth can give your caster armor better than that of a warrior, at the cost of some movement speed, and wards are an excellent way to help your team. One of the difficulties I have with most of the other Elementalist spells on a secondary Elementalist is the high energy cost makes many of them pretty much unusable, or will at least drain your energy pool, giving less energy to use on your other skills. However, I've found some can be useful to bring along with Glyph of Lesser Energy to alleviate the energy cost, and the Glyphs in general can be useful for a secondary profession. Glyph of Lesser Energy can also be used as general energy management, letting your Necromancer use that 25 energy Lingering Curse for less, or your Monk use Healing Seed without taking a large hit to your energy pool.

Necromancer secondary is useful for debuffing- I've seen many people take it simply for Rend Enchantments or Plague Touch. If you're wanting to play a damage-dealing character and don't want to get shut down by Monks enchanting your target, Rend Enchantments is excellent- let the Monk use half their energy laying out enchantments, then remove them all in one shot. Yeah, you'll take some damage, but you should be able to inflict more damage on the enemy team. Other options for secondary necros to consider are the Blood spells for self healing, or even some of the curses to either add extra damage when you attack(Barbs, Mark of Pain), or help out your spell lines(soul barbs, malaise, etc).

The Monk Secondary is a nice one to complement any class. Resurrects are always nice, and having some healing capabilities can take the stress off your healers when they're having problems keeping the team alive. If all else fails, some of the smiting prayers can be used to help yourself or your team- if you want to help your healers out, Shield of Deflection can be the greatest anti-focus-fire skill in the game.

Overall, I find that every profession offers useful skills to use for a secondary class, and generally you can use your secondary profession to help out a weakness you have from your primary profession. Monks have very little for energy management, so choosing a secondary that provides that will help a lot. Warriors don't have access to many damage buffs, other than just their attack skills, so taking along a secondary to increase your damage on every attack can be a good choice. Every profession has something that they don't do as well as you could want, and your second profession gives you access to skills that you can use to cover those weaknesses. In general, any character can benefit more from at least one skill in a second profession as opposed to having 8 skills from one profession.

mostro · Feb 12, 2005, 06:56 AM // 06:56

I learned the hard way of not utilizing the secondary profession. For a while I was content with using only using mesmer skills on my Me/N. Half of my skills were from the domination tree and the rest of them split between illusion and inspiration. Then on one game I got hit by Powerblock from an enemy mesmer. It sucks seeing half of your skills being locked.

There are probably some pros of not using the secondary profession. For one, you don't have to worry about spreading your attributes across two professions. Spell collection process is also easier because you are only concerned with one profession. However, your character would probably automatically become more specialized in the process and thus easier to counter that way too.

Maybe some people like to specialize and limit themselves to the primary profession, but I personally think that it is better to combine skills from both professions.

Keramon · Feb 12, 2005, 04:45 PM // 16:45

There is just about always something that can strengthen your character overall from at least one of the secondary professions. Whether it helps your sustainability, energy management or positively suppliments your abilities or that of your group. To use only the skills from one profession is a fundamentally flawed viewpoint in my opinion. Sure you sometimes have to sacrifice a skill that would have been useful and would've fit the "character's role" however, I think you will nearly always be stronger for the diversity of another profession.

Sausaletus Rex · Feb 12, 2005, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by mostro

There are probably some pros of not using the secondary profession.

Most of which are outweighed by the cons, though. It's not like people can chose not to have a secondary. Every character has one, it's not an advantage, it's just a fact of life. Not utilizing your secondary profession means you've done the equivalent of taken off you boots and gloves before heading into fight. You've limited your character in a fairly fundamental way, you might achieve some success but there's a big chink in your armor, so to speak.

Utilizing your secondary, though, doesn't necessarily involve dumping a lot of attribute points or slots. It can be as simple as taking Elementalist for a glyph. Or Warrior to use Sprint.

mostro · Feb 13, 2005, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Utilizing your secondary, though, doesn't necessarily involve dumping a lot of attribute points or slots. It can be as simple as taking Elementalist for a glyph. Or Warrior to use Sprint.

Very true. On some Necro blood skills for example, I believe it is actually more beneficial to not dump too many attribute points to minimize the health sacrificed.

The mesmer class seems to be a favourite as a secondary class among my friends. It has a lot of utility skills that combines well with the other classes.

On the other end of the spectrum, I wonder how many people use a skill that is not part of their dual professions? I personally can't really think of a skill that would made me want to sacrifice an elite slot from my own professions. Not to mention the lack of attribute points spent on the skill line would most likely hurt the effectiveness of the skill.

Cyrus the Mighty · Feb 13, 2005, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by mostro

I personally can't really think of a skill that would made me want to sacrifice an elite slot from my own professions. Not to mention the lack of attribute points spent on the skill line would most likely hurt the effectiveness of the skill.

Signet of Midnight comes to mind, if you hate warriors

.

Scrivener · Feb 13, 2005, 04:55 AM // 04:55

The topic as stated is kind of difficult to reply to because there are few generalizations you can make. A damage-oriented Ranger will probably have very few skills from the other class, but a shutdown-oriented R/Me will have quite a few, as will a melee R/W. A healing Monk will have very few, while a melee Mo/W will have quite a lot.

Another problem is talking about "builds" out of the context of the whole group. There are various kinds of builds, depending on how self-sufficient you are forced to be.

MOST SELF SUFFICIENT
/\ Arena
|| Pick-up PvE
|| Pick-up PvP
|| Team-based PvE
\/ Team-based PvP
LEAST SELF SUFFICIENT

When you are building a team, there is little point thinking about builds in terms of one character. You have to keep the whole (8 characters x 8 skills = 64 skills) in your mind at once, and distribute stuff where needed. In this case you will get characters like Elementalists taking Necro as a secondary purely for Rend Enchantments, or Warriors carrying Glyph of Energy + Mark of Rodgort, which you would never see in Arena in a million years. Whereas in Arena you will see Healing Signet a helluva lot more than you will in team situations or even pick-up PvP, where you can pretty much count on having a dedicated Monk.

mostro · Feb 13, 2005, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrus the Mighty

Signet of Midnight comes to mind, if you hate warriors

.

I used to use Signet of Midnight, but I have since replaced it with Ineptitude on the last event. I am guessing that you are talking about a non-mesmer class taking Signet of Midnight as a charm, since that skill already belongs to the mesmer.

Is Signet of Midnight worth taking if you are not a primary or secondary mesmer? I personally don't think so...

Feb 13, 2005, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrivener

MOST SELF SUFFICIENT
/\ Arena
|| Pick-up PvE
|| Pick-up PvP
|| Team-based PvE
\/ Team-based PvP
LEAST SELF SUFFICIENT

I'm copying this

Freyas · Feb 13, 2005, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Well, there are some unattributed skills that I would consider bringing on a character with different primary/secondary professions, in some cases. Martyr and Chiron's Balance come to mind, as they are both very nice elites which don't require attribute points to be effective. Rend Enchantments was one that I would strongly consider before it was linked to curses as well- although it then takes an elite slot, the effect was worth an elite. Signet of Midnight is another good one for anti-Warrior, but I don't find many builds where I would choose this as an elite, even with a Mesmer primary/secondary.

Keelan Trement · Feb 13, 2005, 03:16 PM // 15:16

When choosing my secondary, I shoot to fill. I basically look at the weaknesses my character will have, then use my secondary to cover it. (Unless of course you will have someone else on your team doing that, then I just look for skills to make me better at what Im doing)

As another example, Life Bond (elite) needs no points into it to use it well.

Narcism · Feb 13, 2005, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Life Bond with no points in protection prayers just redistributes the damage making it harder for your healers... Life Barrier may be the elite you're thinking about.

Keelan Trement · Feb 13, 2005, 05:18 PM // 17:18

erm, yeah, I meant Life Barrier and said Life Bond.....